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Put Some Altitude in Your Glass
44: Wine Week Panel Discussion
Oct 11, 2022
44: Wine Week Panel Discussion
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
0:00
[upbeat music] You're listening to Denver Wine Radio, the podcast about Colorado wine. My name is Paul Bonacquisty.
0:10
I'm the winemaker at Bonacquisty Wine Company, an urban winery I launched back in 2006 in Denver, Colorado, where I've been making and learning about wine ever since.
0:20
I'm sitting down with other wineries and wine experts to find out what makes Colorado wine so unique and to help you find the wines you like to drink. And now, let's put some altitude in your glass.
0:34
I recently attended a wine-tasting event hosted by Blanchard Family Wines in downtown Denver. Four winemakers, each presenting one Colorado wine to an enthusiastic and thirsty crowd during Colorado Wine Week.
0:47
In attendance was Doug Kingman from Kingman Estates Winery, Tim Mulley from Vinnie Fero Winery in Boulder, Ty Zog Warton from Carboy Winery in Littleton, and myself.
0:59
After the tasting and presentation, we had a panel discussion for the attendees to ask us questions. This is a part of that discussion, which will hopefully give you some insight into the world of Colorado wine.
1:10
Special thank you to James Blanchard for hosting this event and letting us pour our wines in his tasting room. Wine sales are only two percent of the wine sales in the state,
1:21
so most people don't know about Colorado wine. You say, "Well, of course we know about Colorado wine," 'cause you're here.
1:27
But you'd be surprised how many people don't, and it's our job to get out to those, and that's our biggest challenge. Anyone else wanna answer? Paul, you've been doing this for a while.
1:39
I can just add on to what Doug said. It's a constant get in your face. Like- like- but like marketing anything. I mean, it's letting people know we make wine in Colorado and not, uh...
1:49
Here's- here's two little things about when I first started.
1:52
Uh, people would come in the winery, uh, to my place, and- and it's a wall- a wall of barrels and tanks, and they would stand at the opposite side at the tasting bar and say, "So where do you make the wine, Paul?"
2:06
[laughs] And I would say, "Right," I go, "Right there." And they would turn around and look like I was pointing to Palisade. [laughs] And I would say, "No, right, right there." And, "Oh, wow."
2:15
I mean, it was just, it was crazy for them. So there were a lot of people back in the day that when there was not very many Colorado wineries,
2:26
there was a lot of fruit wine, a lot of sweet wines, and they had a bad experience with that. So they've just never-- They wanna support, but they've never gone back.
2:34
So the- the- those are some of the things, uh, and they're still true today. And I'll-I'll- I'll piggyback on that. That's one of our, I guess, missions here, uh, what we do here. Uh, we just opened up in Fort Collins.
2:45
What we're trying to do up there, um, is- is spread that word to people that aren't in Palisade about that Colorado wine. For us, um, we're about a 60/40 split now between California and Colorado.
2:55
So we're- we're getting that two percent up, uh, number up as much as possible, but it is, it's education one at a time. Um, we just had a customer an hour before we started here. They sat on the patio.
3:06
They're from out of town. They said, "I wanna try some things." I poured them eight wines, four California, four Colorado, and I didn't tell them what they were on the board.
3:13
I just put four Colorado, four California wines on their flight board, a mix of red and white, and just let them drink. And then when they're done, then you can tell them what it is. Then you let them evaluate.
3:23
And again, I'm completely happy if we have a 50/50 split between California and Colorado. That's a win. Often we get asked, "What is the difference between a California wine and a Colorado wine?"
3:33
'Cause all wines are not the same. If you travel the world, they're gonna taste different everywhere you go, even worse or better maybe.
3:40
If- if Ty Zog and I make, got the same grapes, our wines would still taste different- Right... 'cause we do everything different.
3:47
But big characteristic differences, um, Colorado wines don't tend to have as much fruit forwardness. Our soil is just not as rich and as lush as a lot of California is. And we tend to have more minerality.
4:03
Think of minerality as, um, wet rock, how that smells with, in a, during a rainstorm, a light rainstorm. That's what minerality tastes like, and it's- it's like southern France. Mm-hmm.
4:16
It's a characteristic of Colorado wine that makes us different and kind of fun to explore.
4:22
I started making wine in California in 2005, and so there- there is a difference in the soil types, uh, say, Sonoma versus, uh, Palisade.
4:32
The- the higher pH, uh, soils, the higher pH soils of- of Palisade versus Sonoma, uh, kind of translates to higher acid in my, in my opinion. That's why, uh, the peaches here in Palisade are so remarkably lively.
4:48
The- the- the acid profile in the, in the peaches, the same translates to the grapes. So it's- it's, um, that is one of the primary differences in- in adapting to cold- cold weather.
4:58
[laughs] And- and I wanna, I'll, and then we'll pass it all the way down and then work back this way.
5:02
I wanna kind of take a twist on that question because some of the, the question is what is the challenge of selling wine here, growing wine here?
5:08
And I kind of want to flip it and say, you talked about the limestone and the hogbacks and the similarities to Argentina. What are the advantages?
5:15
What are the characteristics of Colorado that make it a great region, not what makes it a challenging region? Why do we make great wine here? All right, so one of the cool things about Colorado is it's cool.
5:29
You know, I'll get on that. Yeah. No. So, um, the, the daily split in temperature between, uh, bright, sunny days and cold, starry nights, uh, helps to make great wine.
5:41
And that daily difference in temperature basically cycles the grape plant like a pump. And our degree days are actually bigger than some major wine-growing regions.
5:54
So the number of hours of sunlight times the temperature equals the- The amount of energy that that grape can absorb and then do its job to make a great tasting wine.
6:07
So even though our growing season might be shorter from frost to snow storm, Colorado has a wonderful advantage in the bright, sunny days. So he's, he's talking about diurnal shift. Diurnal shift is that temperature,
6:20
uh, it's the from cold to warm, warm to cold. And so, uh, Palisade in general, where, where the bulk of the vineyards, uh, reside, uh, there's a, there's a high diurnal shift.
6:34
So the, the wind from the Dubet- the mouth of Dubet Canyon along the Colorado River comes through it and cools things down. Uh, you have the Bookcliff Mountains that, that radiant heat.
6:44
So you're heating up through the day, cooling down at night. Right. And it provides that, uh, elongated cooling process. Elongated, uh, ripening, I should say. What's the optimum temperature for that?
6:59
It's, it's a crapshoot. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] It's a gamble. One of the weird things about grapes that make them so unique is that people think, "I wanna grow a fruit. I wanna grow a vegetable.
7:07
I'm growing something, so I want really rich soil. I want a lot of water. I want consistent warm temperature." Grapes want all of the opposite of those things, right?
7:16
Um, they, they want to struggle into the soil, struggle, um, to get deep into the, into the sap of the ground to absorb that minerality. They want huge temperature swings. Again, hot ripening during the day.
7:27
They wanna go dormant at night. You don't want rich topsoil. Um, again, it's, it's a very different environment for growing grapes than it is for growing corn. The next question is in regards to fires and smoke taint.
7:40
The compound responsible for, for smoke taint is, it's called glycol. And the fires that occurred in California and Washington, and there was a, a brief fire was it la- last two seasons ago? Two years.
7:51
Yeah, two years ago. Um, the, those grapes were sent in to be tested, and the threshold through which a, you know, human, human sensory, it was below that threshold, so on the cusp.
8:03
So the grapes were not smoke tainted, uh, as far as I... Yeah. The chemical compound I mentioned in, in the smoke actually binds up with the sugar. And the, the good thing,
8:18
if there was a good thing with the fires, is they happened early in the season. And so y- yeah, there just wasn't a lot of binding.
8:26
I had, I had grapes with ash on them come in, but, but no, no detectable smoke flavor or taint. No barbecued chicken. What are the varietals that Colorado you think should be or will be known for?
8:41
And then piggyback with that, the idea of you talked about hybrid varietals a little bit as well, and some wineries are very forward with hybrids and some are not. So kind of what are your, your opinions on that?
8:53
I think one, one of the real virtues that Colorado has is there's this approach to wine making that's very fresh and, and a lot of,
9:03
uh, vineyard owners are trying a lot of different things and they're trying different varieties at different places to see how that variety expresses itself.
9:12
So just like you could take the same grape and give it to two different wine makers, you'd end up with two different wines.
9:17
You could take the same vine and put it in lots of different vineyards, and you'd end up with a different expression.
9:23
So I think we're still trying to find out, uh, what grapes like Colorado and what soils and, and so forth. I can say that Malbec I think is a, is a pretty good fit.
9:34
I would say that, um, varieties like, uh, varietals like Tempranillo that historically have grown in arid climates like Spain might also be a good fit. And it's just that's the journey. That's the beauty of it.
9:48
And, and that is something you can explore too and say, "What do you like?" So I'll let someone else speak to hybrids. Go ahead on hybrids.
10:00
[laughs] Well, Carboy Winery is betting big on hybrids as a, a base for sparkling. So most hybrid varieties, uh, typically have by nature a higher acid level, and so they're, they're, they're somewhat
10:17
more feasible. They're, they're a lot more feasible, uh, for production of, of sparkling wine base.
10:22
So you're, you're making a base wine, and then you're either fermenting in tank or, uh, traditionally, traditional method fermenting in bottle.
10:32
And so the, the sparkling wine uptick, I think you'll see a lot more, uh, cold-hearty varieties being used by, by Colorado wineries for that type of product, the sparkling product.
10:45
So I'm gonna jump back to the, um, non-hybrid grapes for a minute.
10:50
You know, you, Upstate New York is known for its Rieslings, and they make an outstanding Riesling, and that's what people think of a lot of time when you think of Upstate New York.
10:59
And so we've, we've contemplated here for years what should the red wine be that Colorado's known for? And if I had my way, and I don't get my way, but if I had my way, it'd be Cab Franc
11:12
because I think Cabernet Franc does the best job of expressing Colorado in a red wine. It's more, it's a unique tasting red wine compared to all Cab Francs from around the world.
11:23
We've done taste test comparisons from Cab Francs around the world as part of the wine board and, um, part of CAVE. And
11:33
so what you're getting from this is e- each of us has our opinion of what it should be, and we've never been able to settle on a particular grape that would say, "This is Colorado."
11:44
We grow over 120 different varietals here. We have about 600, maybe a few more acres than that, total grape populate plantings. So most of our vineyards are small, and they're just exactly what he was talking about.
11:59
People try all different kinds of things 'cause it's fun, kind of like us wine makers making wine. Let's see how this one does.
12:06
So we're years away, if we ever will, for settling on one grape that does the best here and produces the best wine.
12:14
Is it, like, with that, is there a region that is the most comparable to us in terms of, like, latitude, longitude out there? Like, not, I guess, kind of the cold spot.
12:24
Um, latitude and then, like, altitude as well that would like, like, so, like, temperature, altitude- Where are we, like? We're at the toe, we're at the boot toe of Italy.
12:34
[laughs] Get the elevation of- Is that where we are, the boot toe of Italy? [laughs] Nowhere else. [laughs] Yeah, the boot toe of Italy. Yeah, I'll just add on to what Doug said, uh, about varietals is, yeah, Cab Franc,
12:53
yeah, years ago, that's what I, you know, I was like, "Wow, this is, this is the grape." Syrah does really well in Colorado. And, uh, and here we are, um, and Cab Franc is still an obscure grape that people don't know.
13:08
And, um, so... And then when you look at the percentage of grapes grown, individual grapes and their percentages grown in Colorado, you still see Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot as, like, the big three.
13:23
So, and, and those were, and th- because they're the most popular grapes, and they were what were planted, uh, years ago, uh, when Colorado was trying to figure stuff out.
13:34
So we need people like you to go out and try all these new, uh, it may sound obscure grapes, uh, to you as a consumer. And, and let us know what the best are.
13:48
And, and I wanna finish by saying we've talked about the boot of Italy, we've talked about Spain, we've talked about Argentina, we've talked about, um, particularly if we're talking about the old world regions of wine, they've been making wine for hundreds if not thousands of years.
14:01
Um, but commercially maybe hundreds and hundreds of years in some of these locations. And so when we mention Syrah and Tempranillo and Cabernet Franc, we're all mentioning grapes that we all know.
14:11
And, and we know these names, we know what they do. But we mentioned Petit Verdot. It's been around for 15, what, 12 to 15 years. Mm-hmm.
14:18
Um, while the Colorado wine industry has been around for a while, really the true modern commercial wine industry in Colorado is about 1985 is really when commercial wine making started here in this region.
14:28
That's not very long, okay? So to say what grape or what wine is going to thrive here and be the trademark of Colorado, it might not have even been invented yet of what that wine is.
14:38
Um, when you, when you hear seminars from Tom Kloucher at U of H Minnesota and you see his research,
14:46
he has grape after grape that is just an alphabetic designation right now in a, in a tube somewhere, um, that will someday be born into a grape that these guys are gonna make into a wine and you're gonna drink.
14:56
And you'll say, "What the heck is that?" And that might be the Colorado grape again 50 years from now, so no idea. Okay. Any other last questions? We got- I just have one. Go ahead, Chris.
15:08
I'm curious when you're planning your year of wine making, do you look at what grapes are available, or do you want to make a certain type of wine and you seek out that grape?
15:21
To summarize the question, do any of you have a plan? [laughs] [laughs] I like how we're all passive about it. [laughs] Yeah, so that is one of my favorite parts of wine making is to look to the future.
15:37
And I think that's something that we all share in common, is as craftspeople, what are, what are we going to do and why are we going to do it, and, and then what then comes our way?
15:50
And so we start out with a vision, how can we sell more Colorado wine? And then we ask the question, what is the right varietal for Colorado, and what's gonna express itself best?
16:03
And then how can we make a really great wine? And then we go off and talk to growers and they say, "No, you can't have this," and, "No, you can't do that." And, and we, we sort of beat the bushes.
16:14
We're out there driving around the back roads and try to rustle up the best grapes that we can. A- and that's our process. But there is a plan, um, that we use, and rarely does it ever go to the plan.
16:26
Um, and we take the opportunities, the turns in the road to say, "All right, there's a ton and a half of this. What should we do?" So that's, that's our process. [upbeat music] That's our show for this week.
16:38
Thank you so much for listening to Denver Wine Radio. Your homework for the week is to go out and taste some Colorado wine.
16:46
If you have any questions or comments or just wanna let us know what you're drinking, go to denverwineradio.com, where you can email us or leave us a voice message. We'd love to hear from you.
16:57
And remember, put some altitude in your glass. [upbeat music] Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media company.
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