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Put Some Altitude in Your Glass
38: Brad Page: The Colorado Cider Company
May 31, 2022
38: Brad Page: The Colorado Cider Company
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0:00
[upbeat music] You're listening to Denver Wine Radio, the podcast about Colorado wine. My name is Paul Bonacquisty.
0:10
I'm the winemaker at Bonacquisty Wine Company, an urban winery I launched back in 2006 in Denver, Colorado, where I've been making and learning about wine ever since.
0:20
I'm sitting down with other wineries and wine experts to find out what makes Colorado wine so unique, and to help you find the wines you like to drink. And now, let's put some altitude in your glass.
0:35
Welcome to Denver Wine Radio. Brad Paige from Colorado Cider Company in the house. Hey, Paul. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here.
0:44
Colorado Cider Company, I can remember the- I remember the first time I met you because you came in here into the winery, and [laughs] I don't remember why you came in. What, what, you don't remember what I was selling?
0:56
I don't remember what, yeah, I just, I remember, uh, there was- Well, I think it was a tasting of some sort... It might have been, but I remember, um, Keith Miller was, uh, he's...
1:06
I haven't seen him for a while, but, uh, we were in here doing a thing, talking about wine, and, uh, and then you came in, maybe you just came to visit, but then you'd mentioned you were getting ready to open a cidery.
1:19
Oh, that's right. I remember that. And, um, and you were telling us about it. Uh, both Keith and I thought you were nuts. [laughs] You were right. We, we knew nothing about cider.
1:30
We were like, after you left we were like, "Oh my God, what's this guy doing?" [laughs] So what are you doing?
1:36
And now I don't e- I think that was probably 10, 12 years ago, 'cause how long, uh, tell me about Colorado Cider Company. Yeah, well, so we, I mean, we, we sold our first cider in April of '11,
1:46
so we started, we were working in our, I guess we leased our space in the fall of 2010, so 10 years plus. Wow, nice. Yeah. What is cider? Because, and I know, I, I know what it is, but for- Well-...
2:00
for those of our, our friends listening... I mean, the traditional definition and sort of the way the government classifies it- Yeah...
2:06
is, I mean, they ca- classify it as a fruit wine, but I mean, cider is a fermented fruit beverage made from apples. So, you know, the big places- There you go...
2:15
is, that make it historically were, uh, France, Spain, and the UK. I mean, there are ciders in northern Italy and Germany, but the three, big three cider, um, countries are Spain, France, and the UK.
2:31
So I mean, i- in the United States it's, was something that existed obviously,
2:36
um, when people were settling the country and bringing apples over from Europe and apples grew well, real well on the East Coast, and they were fermenting anything they could. There weren't a lot of grapes around.
2:48
Or, I don't know, I ima- I imagine the, the French were trying to do some stuff up in Quebec, but I mean, cider was just sort of the farm stand fermentable before- Yeah...
2:58
a bunch of Germans came over and, and they started cultivating, uh, barley.
3:02
But, uh, it's got a long history, and then it was disappeared for years and so people kind of blame it on prohibition, but I think it was sort of pre-prohibition.
3:10
And so there's this little, been a little renaissance in cider in the last 15 years, I'd say, and- Yeah... uh- So you're c- 'cause were you, were you the first cidery in Colorado?
3:20
Uh, there was a f- a guy over on the western slope in Cedar Ridge, Sean Carney, that had blossom wood. He was growing some apples over there, very small, was doing mostly, um, farmer's markets. Made great stuff.
3:31
Um, he's, he's no longer making cider, but, uh, so I was technically the second. And then there's about- That's pretty good... 15 to 20 here now. Yeah. So- 15 to 20? Yeah.
3:44
Yeah, I mean, you're a s- you're the cider pioneer- Yeah... of Colorado. Yeah. [laughs] I guess so. Well, you are. [laughs] I'll take it. Okay, good. [laughs] Yeah, so cider, like you said, yeah, it's
3:58
been growing in popularity because, but it's still, I, I think most people, at least, you know, coming into the winery here,
4:06
and I tell them, "Hey, uh, we, we have cider," and that's for the people that kind of curl their face at wine, they really want to have a beer. Right. So I, I, uh, I point them in that direction, but, um,
4:18
it's gotten better, but most people they would, they think cider and they, uh, they think the non-alcoholic sweet juice- Yeah... you would buy at the shelf on the store. Yeah.
4:26
So, um, I mean, the term cider in, in the rest of the world, uh, means fermented- Yeah... uh, apple juice. So, uh, you know, there's different, uh, stories about why cider became, uh, basically juice.
4:44
Most people kind of think of it as fresh-pressed, cloudy from the farm stand, but really, you know, if you'd ask a Brit or a Frenchman or a Spaniard, they'll, they just call that apple juice, right?
4:55
So cider means alcohol, so you know, it's a thing we've been trying to work on, but it, I don't know. I mean, it, y- you can't really tell people, "You, you, you stupid person who calls it [laughs] this."
5:07
Yeah, you can't do that. That's not, yeah, but I mean, it's, it's changed quite a bit. So I mean, it, uh, people know, uh, when they hear cider now that, "Oh, it could ba- could have alcohol in it."
5:17
I mean, we, we still run into people that ask, "Is there alcohol in this?" And yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's- Although most of it's lower, it, it's basically a lower alcohol.
5:27
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's- I mean, legally it, it can't be over 6%- Well-... or something like that... 8 and a half percent is the, I mean, we got, we had the law changed a few years back nationally- Oh, okay...
5:37
'cause it used to be 7, now it's 8 and a half. I mean, basically it's because of how much sugar is in apples, so you know, wine is, what do you think of wine? 12 to 15 maybe? Yeah, yeah.
5:46
And that's just because of the density of sugar in the grapes, right? Right. So in apples, same thing.
5:50
And so it was 7% because the Brits had come over and had the law changed in the '90s, 'cause they were the only ones that were selling cider over here, and they, they, it was a big company, Bulmers, and- They were making, you know, sort of more sweet soda pop type, uh, cider, so they didn't really wanna go over seven.
6:09
And I mean, it's still the majority of cider's made in the US now are made from dessert fruit and, and five and six, five to 6%. Um, and, uh, that's the majority of the market.
6:21
But it's, it's changed significantly in that a lot of people are growing a- traditional cider apples and, which is more like wine.
6:28
There's flavors in cider apples that are more like wine grapes, and there's tannin and things and, but that's still a just a teeny tiny part of the market, so. Yeah. Um- What are, and then what are some of those...
6:39
So yeah, let's talk about the, those, that, those cider apples. Right But then in general, um, you can make cider from any apples too, right?
6:48
Yeah, I mean, uh, I always say it's a, it's a li- it's a little bit like table grapes and wine grapes. Okay So the market,
6:55
uh, from a cost standpoint, there's so many, uh, dessert apples, basically culinary apples, people eating, eating apples that are in the market, that that's where most of the juice comes from.
7:06
And, and those apples are generally sweeter and just don't have a lot of flavor besides sweetness. Mm-hmm. So if you think about fermenting those, it's like all you get is,
7:16
uh, the alcohol from the sugar and not a whole lot of background. Um, I, I guess it'd be kinda like, uh, making wine from table grapes, you know, the- Right... you know, that's the analogy I always use.
7:27
[laughs] That's a good analogy, I think. So, um, I mean, the traditional ciders, uh, in, in places in like in Europe and probably even in the United States way back when were apples that had tannin.
7:40
And I mean, the, the British have the best term for cider apples, they, they call them spitters 'cause it's really not something you wanna eat, but they're great for fermenting.
7:48
Um- 'Cause the, 'cause they're bitter- Yeah, well-... or, or, or more acid, higher- Well, y- I mean, there's different ones.
7:54
I mean, so what most cider makers are trying to grow are bitter sweets, which are high tannin, high sugar. There's bitter sharps, high acid, high tannin. Um, sharps mean acid.
8:07
It's interesting, the apples that are grown here in the Western Slope tend to be higher acid than if you think about most dessert apples like you buy in a grocery store, mostly from Washington,
8:17
besides a Granny Smith, you might have, um, Pink Ladies or a little higher acid, but most of them are pretty low in acid and, and high in sugar.
8:26
Uh, so the, the cider apples people are trying to cultivate, tannin is really what people are looking for, just to have some- Hmm... I always s- call it sort of an earthy structure.
8:35
It's just more like a red wine, I guess I would say. Yeah. Not as robust, obviously. So the other, um, this past weekend, I opened a bottle of your Newtown Pippin. Pippin, right? Yeah. Yeah.
8:47
[laughs] So- Yeah, now Newtown Pippin is sort of a, used to be a commercial apple that was grown a lot. I think it's originally from New Jersey or Long Island.
8:56
It's a, it's a west, East Coast apple, and that, that's actually the apple I think that, uh, Martinelli's makes, uh, all those- Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So it's a really interesting apple.
9:06
It's got a little bit of banana character to it. And, um, so most of those sort of heirloom apple varieties
9:15
kinda disappeared because it became more about what you could truck and would keep and wouldn't bruise or wouldn't get mealy.
9:24
So that's why when you, you know, you go to the grocery store that you only have eight varieties of apples and, you know, there's thousands of varieties of apples, but, uh- Yeah...
9:32
you don't see very many of them in the grocery store, so. But the Newtown Pippin's become a popular one for cider makers, um, depending on where you can live. Um, we, we have some in our orchard on the Western Slope.
9:44
I'm not sure it's something that will be a keeper for us, but, uh, I think we have, like 50 trees or something. You planted orchards? Yeah, so I mean we- How long ago?
9:53
Uh, 2013 was our first planting, and then, um- Oh, wow. How long does it take for, uh, an orchard to take? Well, I'm trying to think. This, you've got this block one here. We're just about to label our sixth season, so.
10:06
Oh, wow, okay. Um, yeah, so it takes a while. So you plant an orchard and it takes, you get three, four years, you can start to- Four years probably to start getting apples... get some apples.
10:13
Yeah, but even that first block- And then it grows in... yeah, it's, then that's maturing, and we're getting more apples. We, we also have, so we have about 4,000 trees.
10:22
Um, the fourth block we planted, uh, two years ago, and we're planning an extension of that next year. It's a lot of work, even [laughs] about four acres of apples we've got, so really my wife Kathy and I do
10:35
all the work, so besides picking, and that depends on what the year's like. It's been, last year was not a very good year, but variable. I'm just sure it's like the grapes.
10:45
Yeah, 'cause [laughs] yeah, just like grapes, the weather, uh, weather can snap you. Yeah.
10:49
Oh, yeah, and two years ago, there was a day in the fall in October that it went from like 60 to zero overnight, and man, it just- Yeah... it knocked a lot of people on their butts. Yeah, October. Yeah.
11:01
[laughs] October 2020. [laughs] Yeah, it was unbelievable. Yeah, so and your, so your orchards are in Hotchkiss. Hotchkiss, yeah. Yeah, a great area to grow fruit and apples.
11:12
Yeah, I mean, that's traditionally what was there, cherries, grapes, um- Yeah, pears... yeah. Yeah. And I, we've had some good pears. We, we planted some pears.
11:20
And so the analogy of the cider apples are pear-y pears, and, uh, some of these, they're little tannin bombs. I mean, they're, I mean, they, you eat one of these things and you can't generate enough spit to spit it out.
11:32
It's, it's like unbelievable. So that, a little of that goes a long way, but, um, we've got some dessert pears. We've probably about 75% dessert pear and 25% pear-y pears. It's, they're nice.
11:43
And then pear cider, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Well, pear-y is sort of the- Pear-y, is that a term for it? I mean, pear cider is something in the US that people blend apple and pear, but- Okay... uh, yeah, so.
11:53
Well, let's, let's crack something open today. Okay. Well, I'm- We've got, uh, there's four, right? We have four ciders- Yeah... here to try? Well, the lightest thing is this radler that you have.
12:02
Do you wanna, you wanna try that? You drink this all the time. [laughs] Yeah, that's, we carry that one. All right. So let- Let's, let's do the block one. Yeah.
12:09
So this is the first one we, uh- We made from our apples From your apples. Yeah Yeah From the very first block of apples All right Um, so this is- And I should have you, uh, autograph my bottle [laughs]
12:20
But I've been holding onto this thing for five years you're telling me? Oh. That's good. Yeah, I'm s- yeah We're drinking cider out of a wine glass- Yeah... which is okay, right? Yeah, sure Okay.
12:30
But you could- We like to be fancy every once in a while We could p- put it w- in anything. Yeah, yeah. I like it All right. But we're, uh... So what should I do? Should I sniff it just like wine? Yeah. I call it...
12:38
It's funny, it, it depends on... I do this thing in, in, uh, Michigan occasionally. There's a wine competition, and the guy that has done the styles calls that. I call it a blossom characteristic.
12:49
He calls it fermentation, but on the nose it just, it smells to me like apple blossoms. Wow. That is, it's really [laughs] good. The dryness is what- Yeah... you get all the, it coats your mouth, but...
13:02
And then of course it's carb- lightly carbonated. Right But I get all this flavor and, uh, and really good body to it- Yeah... without the sweetness. Right. Well, that's the thing.
13:11
I mean, people think also ciders are sweet and, and they're not.
13:16
I mean, the French make sort of sweeter ciders that they arrest the fermentation and they don't let them terminate completely, so there's some residual sweetness, but
13:26
most people ferment them to dry, so there's no sugar left at all. All the sweetness is added back. So this is still, after all that time, pretty good. So it has some tannin.
13:36
We had, uh, I think, four different bitter-sweets at the time here and some dessert fruit.
13:42
But, you know, a lot of people when I first started getting i- into this, uh, The Botany of Desire is a Michael Pollan book, and, uh, PBS did a little documentary on it and it was... Have you ever read that?
13:52
It's- No, I have not... it's about tulips, potatoes, tulips, apples, marijuana, and maybe potatoes, and botany of desire.
14:02
But in the apples section, he interviews this guy, Steve Wood, who's sort of the godfather of cider in the United States, and he always talks about, you know, if you h- if you hand this to somebody and don't know what it is and it's made from these cider apples, they wouldn't necessarily say apple because it's not, it doesn't taste like apple juice.
14:18
No. [clears throat] No, not at all. They might think it's some funky wine. And I don't really...
14:23
When I smell it, I don't, it doesn't roll me like it, "Oh, apples," but- No, it's not like a- But I do s- I definitely on the finish- Yeah... like, uh, I do get an apple... I, I have an apple leftovers. [laughs] Yeah.
14:36
Aftertaste I guess. Aftertaste. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. [laughs] That's the word I was looking for. It's a little d- richer in color than...
14:42
So the dessert fruit we use for most of the ciders we make, 'cause it's, that's where the market is because of price and everything, I mean, it's a lot... It's very, very light in color. Well, this is delicious.
14:54
This is called Block One. Block One. Because this is from your block. Your, and this- Yeah, the first block of apples. So- Yeah, y- and this was the first release. Right. Yep. I didn't even look. Is it vintage dated?
15:06
You know- You don't do that with apples? Well, it's illegal. Is it really? And [laughs] they will not let us put vintages on it. Wow. They're really goofy about it.
15:14
So we- Could you put a little description on the back that says- Yeah, some-... "Hey, we picked these apples in-" Well, yeah "... October." [laughs] Some people just put Lot, Lot 2015 or [laughs] whatever.
15:22
Yeah, there's ways around the labeling. Yeah, there's ways around it. But it's weird. They, they won't let us put even description of where we specifically grow it because when...
15:31
We have to get label approval for these if they're over 7%.
15:34
So I get, I just did one for our last year's pick, and the TTB, the, uh, our regulator said, uh, "You can't say that because you're implying a viticulture area." And I'm like, "Well, these are apples, not grapes. Who...
15:49
That's- Right... why is that a problem?" And so well, it's in the code, you can't, cider can't do that. And it's like, "Well, that's stupid." They just qu- [laughs] I know, they just quote the code for you.
15:59
[laughs] They don't have to explain nothing. Or with those guys, you know, it depends. You may get two different guys and have the same label in, and they, one says yes, and then another guy says, no. Right.
16:07
Well, the other guy said yes. Well, I, I have no control [laughs] over what the other guy says. But you work for the same people. And these apples are, these are Newtown Pippin? No. No. So these- Or what are they called?
16:18
Let's, uh... So we had n- we have Northern Spy, Kingston Black, Golden Russet, Wickson Crab. At the time we had Dabinett and Michelin, which are two bitter-sharp, bitter-sweets, I'm sorry.
16:31
Um, we have Brown's Apple, Foxwhelp, and Major in this. And so since then we've re-grafted over the Dabinett and the Michelin, um, and we have a couple other, uh, bitter-sweets there now. Let's see. Where's that?
16:48
Um- There's your, there's your dump cup. All right. Um- Hope that's, um, allowed in the cider world- Oh, sure... 'cause you know, when you go to the beer world and these- Oh, they don't...
16:55
Yeah Oh, man I, I judged beer for years, and if you saw a spitter at the table, everyone- [laughs]... everyone gave him a dirty look. They did me when I, at the Great American Beer Fest- Yeah... one year.
17:05
[laughs] It's like, "Hey, dude, I wanna taste some beer. I don't, I don't wanna be drunk and dropping glasses so they can all yell- [laughs]... and roar." Yeah, a different crowd.
17:15
Uh- But you, you came from the beer industry, right? Yeah, I was a, a, a brewpub brewer, craft brewer. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so about 20 years. I started with, uh, the guys that opened the Wynkoop back in '88. Wow.
17:27
So you really- Yeah, so... you're a beer pioneer too. Yeah, well, kind of I mean, you're pa- yeah, I mean, you were- Yeah. I mean, I came up-...
17:31
you were brewing back when very, there was a handful of brewers No, I mean, I, I think we opened... I was involved in still own a part of Cooper Smith's up in Fort Collins. We opened that in '89.
17:40
I think we were the fourth brewery in the state. Yeah. So yeah, I've been around for, for quite a bit of that. It's, it's a whole different world now. Oh. Yeah, crazy. Yeah. So,
17:53
uh, I say I'm a, I'm a recovering brewer, uh, brewmaster. [laughs] What's next? So Grasshoppa is, uh, something we made. Uh, coming from the beer world, I wanted to try something with hops. You know, we don't...
18:06
We're, we're winemakers really, and so there's no hot side. We're not cooking anything. And in beer- Yeah... you're putting hops in and boiling them to get bitterness. So-
18:16
Trying to figure out a way to get that characteristic, we came up with using lemongrass. It's a hopped cider with lemongrass, and this is actually the sweetest cider we make, but it's kind of balanced by the,
18:28
uh, by the lemongrass we think. And, uh, so this has been... I think this is the third cider we made, and so it's been- Oh, wow... a regular of ours for, for over 10 years.
18:36
Yeah, you can smell the, smell the lemongrass immediately. Yeah, and the hops, yeah. And the hops, yeah. So it's very floral. It's got a pretty round mouth feel, 'cause there's a fair amount of sugar in it.
18:47
Wow, almost like a, like tea. Yeah, I get- I mean, to me, I get, I get this green tea type of profile... and that's, yeah, that's from the lemongrass. From the lemongrass, yeah.
18:53
I mean, we, I mean, we basically steep it at room temperature. We don't heat anything up, but, uh, so it sits on the lemongrass. It's interesting, we probably could talk about supply lines and with grapes and stuff now.
19:06
So we usually get, uh, lemongrass from Thailand, and all of a sudden can't get it, so we had to use Egyptian lemongrass and so it's different. But you know what? You have to do what you have to do, right? So- Right.
19:20
[laughs] We can tell the difference. I don't know, uh, the consumer probably does as well if they're Grasshopper fans, but, uh- But the rest of us, no. Well, I don't know. Maybe- Yeah, we don't...
19:30
I'm not gonna- I couldn't tell you- Yeah... if this was Egyptian lemongrass. "Hey, this is Egyptian lemongrass." [laughs] I'm not sure. Wow, but it smells delicious. I mean, it's so fragrant. Yeah.
19:39
I love this, and it is sweeter- Yeah... uh, but not, um- It's not real cloying. Yeah, not cloying, so. Yeah. I mean, we don't... We try to be, I mean, a little sugar for as light as apples are,
19:53
especially with dessert fruit, if there's no,
19:56
um, there's no tannin structure or something you get from real cider apples, uh, um, our dry only has two grams of sugar, but it's just enough to give you just a little bit, a little bit of mouth feel. Yeah.
20:09
But most of our stuff is like our, our biggest seller is Glider, and that's five grams. I think this is, um, 12 grams, so it's... that's the most. Even our cherry, I think our cherry's eight, so...
20:21
And we make, all the stuff we make from our orchard is dry, completely dry. And you're mea- and you're measuring the same, like with wine, would be eight grams per liter? Uh- Or are- I think it's per serving...
20:31
or, or per serving? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so I think in- Which is less than, uh, 1%, right? Yeah, yeah. If you- if I read... if, if it translates correctly- Yeah...
20:39
to me, it's- 'Cause I think, um, uh, and there's probably in the wine world, it depends on who you ask, what, what constitutes a dry wine. There's still some residual sugar in some dry wines, right? Uh, right. Yeah.
20:50
And it, and it typically, like in Riesling, in the case of Riesling, uh, it's measured in terms of the acid as well. Oh, right, yeah. So, 'cause you can have really high acid and- Right...
21:01
and you might have 2% residual sugar, but it tastes dry. Right. It kind of falls in the dry scale, so. Right, right. Yeah. But same thing in, same thing in wi- in even in red wines,
21:12
you can have, um, a little bit of residual sugar in there, but any- anything under... Anything, I don't, I don't know what the [laughs] the rule of thumb is, but there, you can, you're allowed a little- Right...
21:21
if you can call it dry, so. Right.
21:23
You know, I, I had a wine rep early on, I think we were doing a tasting at a liquor store or something when we first started, and she said, "Oh, yeah," the adage, and it's sort of an old adage, is that people talk dry and drink sweet.
21:38
[laughs] Absolutely. Yeah. [laughs] And it's funny, 'cause, like this, we'll have people in our tasting room say, "Oh, I, I, I really like dry ciders. Grasshopper's my favorite."
21:46
And it's like, I've told the guys that work in the tasting room, I go, "Just look [laughs] at them. Don't say anything, just sort of nod."
21:52
Because it's like you don't want to tell them, "Well, that's the sweetest thing we've got." Right. So, and with the orchard stuff sometimes,
22:00
like we'll do G- uh, cinnamon to be judged and stuff, we'll get feedback that this, uh, th- this is too sweet. There's no sugar in that. You're confusing flavor with sweetness. Right. It's two different things.
22:12
Yeah, which is so common in wine that there's, especially in white wines, you can have fruity fruitiness without- Right... without residual sugar- Sort of like a-... because of your fermentation process. Right.
22:24
When you ferment cold, you enhance that fruit. So a lot of people interpret that to be sweetness when it's really just fruit, uh, it's the fruit characteristic. Right. So. Same thing in cider.
22:33
I mean, we've, as an industry, we've sort of been our own worst enemy because we've put all these flavorings and stuff in, and so people are kind of confused as to what... You know, the purists say cider is just apple.
22:46
Mm-hmm. That's, that's what the government says and that's what the purists say. But the market is really, it's cider plus, so
22:54
um, most of the market is made with dessert fruit and there's something added into it for flavor. Yeah. Well [laughs] So, and that's why- Purists can drink, they can drink what they want to drink- Right, yeah...
23:05
and everyone else [laughs] you know? Exactly, yeah.
23:07
And then, you know, and coming from the beer world and then kind of starting out in this, we look at things like the seltzer, hard seltzer category, and it's just mystifying to me.
23:18
I, I just don't get it, but I'm, I'm an old guy, so [laughs] Yeah, me too.
23:23
[laughs] I asked my, my nieces who are in their 20s, and they're like, "Oh, it's, it tastes good and there's no carbs," and- The Radler is kind of your- Lowest alcohol... your, your lowest alcohol, lightest cider?
23:34
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's 4%, so. I mean, the dry, 6.5, so. I mean, 6.5, it slows you down a little bit more than a 4% one, so. [laughs] But that's pretty much in the range of what it, what it is. Right.
23:48
You're not really altering it at all.
23:50
Some of the guys, uh, the old adage about adding water to get to alcohol, this, uh, this guy that used to teach these cider classes that come over from UK always called them river apples.
23:59
"Use a lot of river apples in that." [laughs] 'Cause that was the adding the water? It was the adding the water, yeah. Oh, wow. [laughs] Yeah, so I mean, that's what's fun about doing the things from the orchard.
24:09
I mean, it is what it is, so we don't do anything to it.
24:12
We just, we press the apples and ferment it, and so some years, like last year, I'm not sure why, but the gravities were a little lower, the, the Brix was a little lower than before.
24:22
I mean, we have these Golden Russets which are sort of a- Heirloom apple, they were, they came in one year 25 bricks, which is pretty high for an apple. Wow, yeah. Yeah. I would, yeah.
24:33
And if you ferment that straight, it tastes like a Sauvignon Blanc or something. It's real- Sure... it has more of the, the alcohols are higher. And, and you'd be up around 13, 14%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's unusual.
24:47
I never thought of that, but like when you're ready to harvest or you're getting close to harvest, it'd be just like grapes. You're checking juice levels, acid levels- Right... sugar levels, all that, pH.
24:59
Do you- Yeah, mostly for us it's sugar levels, and we do starch test on it, um, just to see if there's, there's sh- there's no starch left and sugars. But last several years we've just been trying to beat the weather.
25:12
Three years ago we waited a little long and some apples froze on the trees. Hm. Got a freeze came by, and then the next year we got everything off and that's when that bad freeze happened.
25:24
Um, we had trees that, you know, they hadn't started to harden off yet and the trunks just split in half. I mean, they just- Oh, man... exploded. Yeah.
25:31
And the wine guys, my nextdoor neighbor grows wine grapes up there and he lost almost everything. The grapes just weren't, they weren't ready to go dormant yet. Yeah, it's- So we've been sort of just picking [laughs]
25:43
we're like watching the horizon and [laughs] we gotta get 'em in. Yeah, that's, that's how we do it in grapes. Did someone come in? Somebody did come in. Hello? Hey. Yeah, I'll be right down. Yeah, go ahead.
25:59
We'll take five for a growler refill. [laughs] Be right back.
26:07
[upbeat music] Yep, welcome back to Denver Wine Radio, sitting here with Brad Paige, owner of Colorado Cider Company. Been around for a long time, I mean, in the cider world.
26:21
And you, you'd mentioned what, 15 to 20 cideries now in Colorado? Yeah. Yeah. So and they're, they're lumped in with the wineries because made under a winery license. Right, yep.
26:30
So, um, we, we had talked about this, uh, last month or so, there's, we think there's 177 wineries- Is that right?... which includes, uh, cideries in that number- Okay, wow... in Colorado now.
26:42
So like in the cider world you've seen growth obviously- Right...
26:46
from you were number two, first one in Denver, and now there's 15 to 20 scattered around and so what is it in the cider world would you like to see that double, that number double?
26:57
Would that create more excitement a- around cider? Yeah, I mean, probably. I mean, it, I think we're in a bit of a,
27:06
a trough, you know, if whether it's because we're really not in a apple-growing area or there's so much competition for us in the can segment with, uh, hard kombucha- Hm...
27:20
and seltzer and all this stuff that's lower alcohol and- Yeah... you know, the consumers are young and moving around on what they drink. And, a- I think in the wine industry it's sort of mature.
27:31
I mean, I didn't really become a wine drinker until a little bit later.
27:35
I was a beer drinker obviously earlier and so I think cider's sort of been one of these things that it's trendy in a way, then it's had some market share taken away from it from these other things.
27:49
But I, in the long run I think it's here to stay 'cause it's a traditional beverage. And I, I always say, you know, I can see in 10 or 15 years there'll be trips to, uh, Europe, cider trips, right?
28:01
And there have been some- Mm-hmm... but you're never gonna have a "Let's go to France where the traditional hard seltzer comes from."
28:07
[laughs] Because it's basically made from sugar and artificial flavors, there's no historical background to it. I mean, cider has got a long, long pedigree, so- Right... uh, maybe hard kombucha, I don't know.
28:17
But I mean- Let's-... kombucha used to be a health drink that had no alcohol in it. I'm, I'm a little confused as to why that's a- Right... a thing. Health- healthy alcohol. [laughs] You could...
28:27
It's like Guinness used to have, uh, their advertising u- used to be, "Guinness is good for you." Those were the days. Oh, wow.
28:34
[laughs] Yeah, there were some guys brewing, uh, kombucha here down like in the complex- Right... upstairs in one of the units. Things blow up? Uh, well, I, [laughs] I think they had a few issues, but, um...
28:48
And this was at least 10, 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago, so I was curious about the product. I'd never really heard of it, but they were experimenting. Uh, didn't go anywhere with it.
28:58
Uh, ultimately the more I studied it, uh, and tasted it [laughs] I didn't want any part of that inside the winery that I didn't want that yeast strain in here- Well, yeah, 'cause it's-... to contaminate...
29:07
yeah, 'cause I mean it used to be live cultures and there's a, a digestive, uh, aspect to it and, yeah, it's not something- Yeah... yeah, you want around. [laughs] And it's not my favorite product.
29:17
You made, you made these guys, uh, walk through sanitizer before they came in the winery. Yeah. [laughs] That's, that's the Crooked Stave guys for sure- Oh, yeah... when they, 'cause they do all those Brett beers.
29:27
But Chad, I think he has like dedicated lines, right? He's got clean lines and, but I'm not sure how effective that is. Yeah. But I think we'd love more cideries, I just don't know where the market is for it now.
29:38
I mean- Right... some of the newer guys that have opened more recently have been more farm-based. There's quite a little scene down the Four Corners over in, uh, Delta County, Palisade and stuff.
29:48
It's just that, you know, there's not a lot of apples grown in Colorado and, um, have... it's a beer crazy town too, so I mean- Yeah...
29:56
it's come a long way from when I started but, uh, there's a lot more players in there, so I think it's just gonna take a lot longer. Yeah, 'cause you've, you've been, distribution's been part of your model for- Yeah...
30:07
since you started. Yeah, we weren't really retail-oriented. I mean, I, coming from the beer, the brewpub business, I really didn't wanna be a bar, so that was probably a fatal mistake on my part, but- [laughs]...
30:16
I think retail, uh, makes a lot, a lot of sense but, uh, um, yeah, we just wanted to be a, a manufacturer and wholesaler, so.
30:24
Yeah, you never [laughs] and that's what my wife and I always said, "We don't wanna be a bar," [laughs] and then, you know, the more we went along the more we turned into a wine bar. Yeah.
30:32
Well, yeah, I mean, it's the margins are good and that's why brewpubs work so well.
30:36
But, you know, there was a period where the brewpubs sort of were on a downward trend and the, and the manufacturing breweries were- On a, an upward trend, and then this whole tasting room thing happened.
30:46
We didn't have to have a restaurant, and so that was, you know, w- not having to have a restaurant, just selling beer over the bar was incredibly profitable.
30:55
So that's why there was just an explosion in Denver of, of tasting rooms with breweries, so, um- Yeah, and I think now,
31:03
in general for, uh, especially for the, the wine industry, the way I see it, there's so many establishments just to go drink- Oh, yeah... that you have to be...
31:16
If you are a winery in the city, you have to operate like a wine bar. Right. You have to. Yeah. It's different- The traditional tasting experience is just not there. No.
31:26
If I don't have live music, if I don't do other things, then, you know, I'll get occasional, we get some people, you know, we get a, some tourists- Right... or a few other people.
31:37
But, uh, mostly, I mean, we've, we're, we've, we've built a community, and that's what's nice, is bringing people together, so. Right. So it's not, uh, it's not a bad thing. No. More power to you. [laughs] Thank you.
31:49
[laughs] All right, what else did you bring? Well, I brought the Kingston Black, so, um- What's that all about? Kingston Black is a variety of apple.
31:56
The e- e- there's a, a Haken cider here in, in Aurora, makes some amazing ciders, and he's sort of looked at it from a wine standpoint where he does a lot of single varietals, so it's just the one apple.
32:08
Traditionally, ciders in, over in Europe are blends because the, there are very few apples that have just the right acid- Mm... and pH blend. Sure. You know, you have to blend.
32:16
So, um, Kingston Black is one that, uh, has always been considered a single varietal, so the, the balance is right in the apple.
32:25
Daniel does amazing things with a bunch of single varietals, but this is the first one we've made just from this one apple. So these are bitter sharps, Kingston Blacks. Oh, this has a nice golden color to it.
32:36
Yeah, it's really, it's really nice. The first year we kind of had a big enough harvest of the sing- one single apple. Wow. What a, it has a, such a bright, almost citrusy, uh- Yeah, it's a spicy-... aroma...
32:48
little bit of spicy. Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like a, like you think of like a North African orange or something that's not a, not just a table orange, but it's got a, kind of a spiciness to it.
33:01
And that's what these a- all these apples, all they ha- they have a such different character.
33:06
Um, this has been, we've won some medals with this one, and this, this has been something we've been really proud of, this Kingston Black.
33:12
Yeah, super flavorful, but man, then the, uh, but dry, and the acid is so good on the finish. Yeah. Makes your mouth water. Makes you wanna have another drink. Yeah. [laughs] Makes me wanna have fish and chips.
33:25
[laughs] Yeah, there you go. Yeah, this is, this is a nice cider. Wow, that's delicious. Man, I could, I could become a cider drinker, I think.
33:33
[laughs] Yeah, the problem is there's not that much of these around, and, uh, it's hard for the liquor stores to sell them, and- Yeah...
33:42
so it's, it's pretty specialized things, but once people get into them, I mean, they're really into them, so. And there's, you have this bottled in a, or a 750. Yeah.
33:49
And that's the, that's the dilemma, I think, is, um, I mentioned Steve Wood earlier, he's gone to some, trying to do some cans, but you know, once you get into a can, four-pack is 48 ounces of cider, and then the can thing has been just horrendous for everybody, f- if you're small.
34:04
The price for cans have doubled in the last year. Yeah. So I don't know, I, I look at these ciders as more like, uh, something you have with a meal and you share with friends.
34:13
So the 750 to me makes sense, 'cause it's, um, it's just, it's not like a single serving cider. You got a, it's good with- Right... food. The acid's there, so. I mean, the Spanish have it down.
34:23
They've got, they have cheese and, you know, prosciutto or, uh, Jamón crudo, whatever and- Yeah... you know, it just, it's just a whole thing. So cider is just sort of an accompaniment to, to that kind of food.
34:36
Well, I'm digging it. This is awesome. Yeah, those are good. So right now we have, uh, I think we have five orchard series ciders on tap at the tasting room. We have a Perry, so we make 100% pear from the orchard.
34:50
Um, we just put on what we call Page Street Blend from last year's harvest. We're about to put on, uh, Wixon Crab, which is 100% crab apple. These crabs are, they're bigger than, like, the normal Denver crabs you see.
35:03
Okay. But, uh, but they're, they're pretty high acid. It's, it's, uh, not as, um, sharp as some, but that, it's gonna be really nice.
35:13
And then this year looks like we have a good fruit set, so we'll have more, more cider coming. Nice. Yeah. What about barrel aging in cider? Is that a thing or- No, we... Yeah, it is a thing. We've done some.
35:24
Uh, w- we make a Pommeau, which, so we distill some cider. It's kind of like, I always describe it as a apple port, so it's a fortified cider.
35:33
So we just take distilled cider, you know, which would, you know, if you age that in a barrel, it'd be brandy, like apple brandy or, uh, Calvados or something.
35:42
And, but we put it in with fresh apple juice and age it in barrels. We do some barrel aging. It's tough to me because it's so light bodied that the, especially, um, we like rum barrels and white wine barrels- Mm-hmm...
35:56
'cause they're a, they're a little, uh, less assertive. But if you get into, like, whiskey barrels and stuff- Mm... it's all you taste. Yeah.
36:03
Um, so with this fortified cider, it's higher alcohol and, uh, and there's enough sugar in the apple juice that it can h- it can handle a little bit more barrel aging.
36:12
But Katie, who's our, one of our cider makers, really likes the barrel stuff, and I'm, I just, I'm an old guy, so, and all I taste is barrel. [laughs] But, uh, you know.
36:23
Yeah, I mean, I think for certain applications it's, it's good. So we just, uh, we work with Lenny up at Deerhammer in Buena Vista.
36:30
We just sent him some cider to distill today, and so he sends us some whiskey barrels, and we do some stuff with that. Oh, nice. Yeah, it's fun. And that's stuff you, you could get at the cidery, right? Yeah, yeah.
36:40
That wouldn't be out on the shelf, but- But you're around, um, I mean, the s- your cider's around statewide? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're, um- You're everywhere...
36:49
pretty much statewide and, uh- And you self-distribute? No, we're with- Or you get-... we're with Elite Brands. We- Oh, okay... and then, uh, High Country is the Coors distributor up north on the Western slope.
36:59
But, uh, so yeah, it's been weird with out in the market, so in, in, during the pandemic, you know, all of our, about half our sales were on premise, restaurants and bars, and that wasn't just draft, that was cans too, so we lost half our business overnight.
37:14
Hmm. Almost all of our business is cans, and as things have started opening up, the draft has gone crazy and cans are... So the balance has changed again.
37:24
So I g- I guess it just shows people are getting out because our draft sales have really gone up. But, uh, it's trying times in the, in the liquor, liquor world these days- Yeah... especially from a cost.
37:36
I mean, everything we, everything we buy is so damn expensive. [laughs] Uh, yes, I know. Yeah, everything is up and, uh, it's brutal. Yeah. But it's alcohol, so- Yeah... this is- [laughs]
37:49
We always have that, the alcohol portion. We always have that, huh? Thank you. What, uh... Okay, so what's coming up this summer? What's, uh, what's in the future for, uh, Colorado Cider Company?
37:58
Um, we're working on a couple of, uh, specialty ciders, and, um, trying to get the orchard in shape. Um, that's about it, just plugging along.
38:08
So I mean, our tasting room's open on the weekends and we have, we have 20 ciders on tap. You know, one of the things we do every year is make a fresh hop cider, so we were working with a hop company in Paonia,
38:21
um, and we'd get fresh hop flowers and do dry hopping, and we had four different one of those. And, but he went out of business, he decided not to grow hops anymore, so he's gone.
38:30
I think there's a guy in Montrose we've been talking to, but you know, for a while there they thought the hop industry would work in Colorado, and I think Coors guaranteed purchase for some of these guys. Okay.
38:41
But, uh, that's kind of... Who owns Miller Coors? It's another global beer corp thing. I think they- Yeah... didn't wanna indulge the local, the local- Uh-... native. Oh, yeah So, yeah, native... yeah, na- yeah.
38:54
So I don't know. Something happened with that, so well there's a bunch of those now. But, um, anyways, our buddy at High Wire pulled up all his hop vines, so. Oh, man. Yeah.
39:05
The hop short- I mean, this was 10 years ago, there was a big hop shortage. Yeah. But it has, that's all- Well, yeah, there's not a hop shortage. Worked out?
39:12
I mean, I think the problem with Colorado hops is, uh, they don't have access to some of the more popular, uh, the hop industry in the Northwest.
39:22
Um, you know, they have patents on a lot of these hybrid hops and stuff, and- Hmm... like everything, it's just more expensive to grow here.
39:28
There's no economies of scale, so you know, they were having a hard time competing. Well, all right. Um, well, hey, thanks for having me, Paul. That was fun. Yeah, thanks for coming down. This was- Absolutely...
39:39
uh, this was a lot of fun. I've got to keep, uh, I wish I hadn't missed the Chaka Khan night here. I don't know who's next. [laughs] Oh, man, we got, I have surprises coming up- Yeah...
39:47
uh, next for, you're talking about Vinny and Vinyl. That's our wine and record club, so yeah. Chaka Khan, good, that was a good, uh, good release this month.
39:58
And, uh, coming up next month, I have to put some thought into it and see, uh- Okay... you know, what everybody, what everybody's requesting.
40:06
We're licking our chops for, uh, the Silk Sonic album release August 12th, [laughs] so we'll have that one in the house. Oh, good. That's, that's the Bruno Mars- Right, right... Anderson Paak, uh, combo. But, um, yeah.
40:21
So thanks for asking. Colorado Cider Company, man, they are the pioneers in, in, uh, in Colorado for cider. Available everywhere. Pick up some cider these days and, um, and you'll be surprised. Thanks, Paul.
40:35
You're welcome. Cheers. That's our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening to Denver Wine Radio. Your homework for the week is to go out and taste some Colorado wine.
40:47
If you have any questions or comments, or just wanna let us know what you're drinking, go to denverwineradio.com, where you can email us or leave us a voice message. We'd love to hear from you.
40:58
And remember, put some altitude in your glass. Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media company.
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