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Put Some Altitude in Your Glass
32: Doug Caskey: The Colorado Industry Wine Development Board
Mar 29, 2022
32: Doug Caskey: The Colorado Industry Wine Development Board
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0:00
[upbeat music] You're listening to Denver Wine Radio, the podcast about Colorado wine. My name is Paul Bonacorsi.
0:10
I'm the winemaker at Bonacorsi Wine Company, an urban winery I launched back in 2006 in Denver, Colorado, where I've been making and learning about wine ever since.
0:20
I'm sitting down with other wineries and wine experts to find out what makes Colorado wine so unique, and to help you find the wines you like to drink. And now, let's put some altitude in your glass.
0:36
My name is Doug Caskey. I'm the executive director of the Colorado Wine Industry Development Board. Uh, we are part of the markets division of the Colorado Department of Agriculture.
0:48
So yes, I probably have one of the best government jobs in the state, thank you. Uh, been doing this for 22 years now.
0:57
Before that, I was the wine manager and store manager at Boulder Liquor Mart, which sadly is now a hole in the ground. They're building an a- Oh, really? [laughs] They're building an apartment building on that location.
1:11
Uh, it's been gone for a couple of years. As a matter of fact, it seems like most of the places that I worked, uh, in the wine business are gone, so [laughs] I don't know what that says. Is there a correlation there?
1:21
[laughs] I hope not. [laughs] Well, welcome back, Doug, to Denver Wine Radio. It's great to be here, Paul. Yeah. And I'm glad you're back too, so. Well, thanks. Yeah, it's nice to be back
1:33
and, um, talking about Colorado wine. Lot's changed in the last few years, uh- Mm-hmm... since you were last on the show. Why don't you bring us up to date? [laughs] Uh-oh.
1:45
You know, if people are always asking, "How many wineries are, are there in Colorado?" It's like- Yes... uh, 'cause it's such a moving target. People are opening and closing, but I just did a count.
1:55
It's like 160 wineries, plus I think it was m- a dozen or so of the big wineries, the manufacturing wineries, and then 16 vintners restaurants, which is a- Okay... different license. Right. So we're 170-something.
2:11
That includes people who just produce cider.
2:14
Yeah, th- I was gonna ask because when I, I did a count, there was actually, what I came up with, and I didn't break it down, there was about 200 limited winery licenses listed on, you know, listed on the state website.
2:28
Right. Plus the 16, uh, vintners restaurants that you were talking about. Right. There's usually a lot of duplication for some reason, plus- Okay... they also include tasting rooms.
2:40
Oh, so some- So if you have a separate tasting room- Right... you're listed at least twice. Okay. Um, so you know, it's confusing. The g- the good news is we're just, we're just shy of 200. Yeah, there's a bunch. Yeah.
2:51
There's m- there's many out there. You know, like I said, that number includes cideries, uh, because cider is a wine. It's m- they're licensed as wineries. Also includes people who make mead, honey wine, and sake.
3:06
Um, you know, sake is kind of this [laughs] odd duck that doesn't fit in anywhere else, so- Right... uh, you know, literally the statute says, "Yeah, we can't figure out where to put this, so we'll call it wine."
3:19
It's a slight change in the statute language, but it's pretty close. [laughs] Right. And there, and okay, so I know there's Colorado Sake Company, and is there more than one?
3:28
There used to be two, now there's only one, Colorado Sake Company. They're doing pretty well. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I, I haven't tried their product yet, but- It's really interesting.
3:36
I mean, they have a straightforward sake, and then they do several flavored sakes. So there's one with, um, [laughs] there's several fruit flavors. Okay. There's one, I think, with black tea, uh- Oh, nice...
3:48
or w- with, you know, a, a tea essence. So yeah, uh, really interesting stuff that works, uh, works quite well and, you know, is somewhere bes- between a seltzer and, um, a, a flavored wine. And, um,
4:02
it, really interesting products, and they've seemed to be quite popular. Yeah, and then also there's a winery in, um, somewhere down in the Colorado Springs area. They're using lemons to make wine.
4:13
They're using, um, citrus. Or citrus... citrus, citrus wine, which, you know, I remember reading about that years ago in the federal statutes that you can make citrus wine.
4:22
It's a separate class, and I was always c- always wondering about that. Again, their wines are really good.
4:29
They're totally different because yeah, the base is, is citrus, and th- they're incredibly refreshing, you know, just vibrant flavors, and several different flavorings mixed in so they have, like, a lemon-lime that g- makes a nice base for a margarita.
4:47
Yeah, I'm trying [laughs] to look up the name. I can't remember. It's Evergood Elixirs. That's right, Evergood Egl- [laughs] Elixirs, 'cause they have one called Snowpea. Yes, uh, Ski Bunny. Yes. Ski Bunny Pink.
4:59
Uh, and then there's also another winery up in, and forgive me because I can never keep Louisville straight from Lafayette, but it's in one of those towns. Sure.
5:08
You know, they started out making the concentrate for spiced wine a- and, um, sangria. Right. And that's become huge. Called Decadent Saint. Um- Oh, yeah...
5:20
they also really filled a niche and, you know, those products were a huge, still are, a huge hit in liquor stores, especially during the ski season when you can, you know, warm it up and make a- Yeah...
5:32
make a warm sangria, and great, great, great mixes. Yeah, those are good. You know, I haven't tried those. Or maybe I, I think maybe the first, first few years, I, I did happen to get a bottle. Yeah, really good stuff.
5:45
And you know, b- uh, talking about the citrus wine, I noticed this, uh, a few years ago out of Florida. They make a lot of orange wine. Yeah.
5:52
They make these products for, uh, stores with a beer and wine l- if you're a restaurant and you only have a beer and wine license but you wanna have a cocktail- Mm-hmm...
6:00
on the menu- They're, they're orange wine based- Right... but then they make them taste like a margarita- Yeah... or a whiskey sour. Yeah. Or [laughs] They're, they're really adaptable.
6:09
Uh, I mean, if you think about Florida and most of the South, it's so humid, normal vinifera grapes, uh, have white, have mildew problems.
6:18
So, uh, it's something they're constantly battling there, and the few grapes they do grow are, uh, have unique native resistance to the mildew that grows down there.
6:30
But citrus is a natural, and that's one of the things they came up with historically to get away from those problems that grapes had in, in the South. Okay, when I started way back in, uh, let's see, 2006,
6:44
uh, word on the street was there was about, I don't know, at that time 600, 700 acres of grapes planted. Then over the years I felt like it went up to about 1,000 acres of grapes, uh, in the state.
6:58
But now- It's still about 750. Yeah. You know, we were saying 1,000 acres for a while. I'm not sure we were ever able to find them all. And you know, what's happened, we've had
7:12
some bad vintages, some really difficult vintages. Mm-hmm. People did rip out grapes to go back to planting peaches. But we're, we're still a good solid 750 acres I think. Uh, and that's good.
7:24
And I don't remember exactly when we talked, but for many years we thought we were phylloxera free here. Phylloxera is the nearly microscopic mite that eats grapevine roots. Mm-hmm.
7:38
We thought we were gonna be exempt from that in Colorado. Well, turns out we're not. Um, about 2015 we started seeing s- signs of it. It doesn't seem to be spreading quickly here, which is, is great news. Yeah.
7:52
But it does mean that we are having to rethink our strategies. For years we were able to use self-rooted vines, uh, which means, you know, you have Chardonnay on top and Chardonnay under the ground.
8:07
Well, you know, the, the European grapevines are susceptible to phylloxera because it's native to this country, and Europe never developed a resistance to it. Mm-hmm.
8:17
So the solution over there was to graft Chardonnay onto Native American roots. We're, we're slowly replanting a lot of Colorado vineyards to grafted root stock to, to avoid problems with phylloxera down the road.
8:34
I remember when it first hit, but I, I haven't really heard much about it spreading. Like you said, it just, it seemed like it got contained, uh, very r- you know, fairly quickly. Right.
8:44
And I, I, you know, I'm not sure we would, it would be accurate to say it is contained. I think it just, it doesn't spread rapidly here. Okay. Uh, Washington State would be the same. Yeah.
8:55
They, they've also discovered phylloxera more recently than we have. Hmm. But again, you know, whether it's our soils... Somebody said, "Oh, well it's too cold here."
9:06
But phylloxera is native to Upstate New York, so it's a lot colder there during the winter than it is here. The, there are I think many circ- many factors that slow it down in Colorado. Yeah.
9:16
Plus, you, you know, vineyard owners don't like to brag about it either. [laughs] No. [laughs] So they keep it- Yeah, that helps. [laughs] They, they keep it to themselves I think.
9:25
Well, you know, uh, Horst Gaspari, who's our state viticulturist working out of Grand Junction, you know, one of the comments he made, uh, a few years ago is that some of those areas in Western Slope vineyards where we thought, oh, that's just low-lying and there's frequent cold damage there, maybe not.
9:44
Maybe that was actually a phylloxera infestation in that area in their vineyard, and we just didn't realize it was here. Did... Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause he, um, he gave a real interesting presentation at VinCO.
9:59
[laughs] Mm-hmm. And with a lot of, lot of interesting facts about, uh, Colorado.
10:04
And, um, I know because of weather, I just found this was just shock, almost shocking, we had our lowest production of grapes since, uh, 1991 because of, uh, two Octo- basically two October freezes. Right in a row. Yeah.
10:19
Yeah. And they were, um, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think it was about a 70 or 80 degree temperature swing within 24 hours or so. Yeah. And it wasn't that it got
10:33
as cold as it is today outside, but it got cold quickly and it got colder than the grapes were ready for. You know, grapes gradually harden off in the fall and the early winter so that they can handle zero degrees with
10:50
some ease. And, you know, to get down to 10 or 20 degrees suddenly in October right after the, the harvest was d- really devastating to the grapevine. Yeah.
11:03
So the second year in a row when that happened in, in 2020 really devastated the 2021 harvest. Yeah. And the, the CSU climatologist presentation- [laughs] Mm-hmm...
11:17
said they had, uh, measured the temperatures in October for the last 100 years in Colorado, and it hadn't been below 20 degrees except for two years. [laughs] Nine- 2019 and 2020- Yeah... when it went down to 10. Yeah.
11:33
So just amazing. Yeah. I, you know, hopefully these are just flukes of weather in Colorado and not some kind of indication of new trends.
11:44
But I think, you know, what happened even starting before then with some of the winter damage, people started paying attention more closely to some of the cold-tolerant grape varieties. Yeah.
11:56
We saw more and more of those being planted to where in, in 2020 when we lost close to 100% of the vinifera grapes, the European grapes, uh, we still had- A fair amount of cold-tolerant grapes to be harvested.
12:13
So, you know, we're, we're moving in the right direction and those previous, uh, freezes have kind of taught us a les- lesson that we've recovered from.
12:22
Yeah, it's kinda cool there, that there's been more, more research and, and more plantings of cold-hearty varietals. Mm-hmm. Uh, hybrids as they're known.
12:32
Uh, some people may not know about hybrids, but they're where they take a vinifera grape and cross it with a Native American grape. Right. Yeah. And, and you know, the process was
12:45
first experimented with back when they found phylloxera in Europe and they were trying to figure out how to breed, uh, resistance to the North American bug into European grapevines.
13:01
So they were, they started by, with trying to cross-breed, which wasn't terribly successful at phylloxera resistance at that time, which is why they went to the grafted rootstock.
13:12
But it started that trend of combining characteristics. So for instance, they have grape varieties that are resistant to some of those mold and mildew problems we talked about down in Florida.
13:24
They have a lot of varieties that they've, they've bred that are, uh, resistant down to 20, 30 below. Wow. The University of Minnesota is one of the leading creators of these grapes and yeah, that's [laughs]... Yeah...
13:39
they need that up there- They do. [laughs]... in, in Minnesota. Uh, but we are benefiting from that too. Some of those varieties do quite well here.
13:47
Yeah, and they, the stuff we've tasted over the last, uh, few months been really good. Petite Pearls- Mm-hmm... is one that's very exciting. Yes. Cabernet Dorsa is another one- Oh, wow...
13:58
that Horst has been talking about. Wow. Aramella for the whites. Um, y- Yeah, Aramella. Mm-hmm. And that's, uh, w- we had tried that from, uh, Plum Creek. Right. They had a winner, a gold, a gold cup- Mm-hmm...
14:10
or a Governor's Cup, uh, winner with their- Right. And um, I mean Aramella, good example because one of its parents is Muscat. The vinifera parent is Muscat. Mm-hmm.
14:20
So you still have that wonderful Muscat aromatics to it, but you've got a little different flavor structure underneath it, and it's a wonderful wine. Uh, especially when you blend it like Plum Creek did.
14:34
Well, and today I have a bottle of Carlson Vineyards NSFW, Not Safe For Work. [laughs] 'Cause that's what that stands for. And, uh, maybe like a try- But we are working, so it's okay. Yeah, it is okay. Yeah, yeah.
14:49
[laughs] Um, I guess it depends what type of work you're doing. [laughs] But no, I, uh, this one is also hybrids. I don't remember the blend. Yeah, I think, I know, uh, Vidal Blanc- Okay, yeah...
15:01
is the, is the main grape in this. I can't, but I, I looked it up and I couldn't find- Yeah... uh, what was, uh, what else was in it. But, uh, but let's give it a whirl. Sure. You bet.
15:12
[upbeat music] Really nice, nice aroma on this.
15:27
Oh, yeah, it smells, uh, it has a Sauvignon Blanc, uh, type of smell to it. Mm-hmm. But with just a touch more flowers, the floral range of Sauvignon Blanc. Yeah.
15:40
[slurping] I'll be sure to do my slurping into the microphone, so. [laughs] Yeah, that's okay. [laughs] We don't have to add any sound effects. Uh- [laughs] We're making our own.
15:50
What I love about this, again, is it's, you know, it's very aromatic upfront, like you say, the, the Sauvignon Blanc character, but then really clean and crisp on the finish. And I would say this is completely dry.
16:03
It might have a touch of residual sugar in the middle, but not much. Yeah, not, yeah, not much. It's, it tastes dry to me. It has, um, yeah, that r- really nice citrus component- Mm-hmm...
16:13
uh, all the way through and on the finish. But yeah, like a little bit of, um, I don't wanna say, uh, it's almost stone fruit, uh, in the middle. But, um- Yeah... yeah. Yeah. I guess that's what I'd describe it.
16:25
But super delish. And- Nice, nice wine to have with fish. I'm thinking of, um, swordfish or sea bass or, um... I'm thinking chicken fajitas, Doug. Okay. All right. That's... [laughs] I'm there. I'm there.
16:37
That's my go-to all the time. [laughs] So well that's nice. Yeah, Carlson Vineyards, uh, NSFW wine, which is, uh, not safe for work. I know they have a, a red out. Uh, I'm not sure.
16:52
This is probably long gone [laughs] 'cause it was a Governor's Cup winner back in, uh, 2019. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I've been holding onto that. That's, uh- Just for you. [laughs] Thank you. Thank you.
17:02
I'm glad you did. And it, you know, it's held up really well. I, I don't see it fading a- at all here, even though it's a what? Three-year-old aromatic white. You'd think some of that
17:13
b- bouquet would start to, start to go away. I, that's, that's still very nice. Yeah, super delish. Great job, uh, Garrett Poertner from, uh, Carlson Vineyards. [laughs] So.
17:24
So I think they created this, this label, the NSFW label, as kind of a, you know, lower-end, entry-level blend. Oh, yeah.
17:33
Um, so, uh, at the time I'm r- I'm thinking this was around a, a 10, $12 bottle on the, on the liquor store shelf, so. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that, yeah, that's a great deal.
17:46
Yeah, in fact, I'm looking at their NSFW red, their 2019 red. Uh, it's 12 bucks off their, right off their website. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible v- incredible value there.
17:58
Okay, so Vidal Blanc, I don't, I'm not sure how many acres of [laughs] of that is being grown, but there's probably a small pocket of it. There are, I think, several growers who are experimenting with it.
18:10
But yeah, it's, it's not huge, and it ends up in that other category [laughs] when you look at the listings for- Uh, uh, by variety here in Colorado Right.
18:20
Yeah, and I was looking at the pie chart, uh, recently, and it's, it still looks like Chardonnay, Merlot, Riesling, and Cabernet Sauvignon- Right... all right around, uh, like n- 10% each, uh- Uh, uh, yeah...
18:36
give or take Give or take a little bit. Yeah. Uh, they're, they're still the strong ones that are most prevalent.
18:42
Cabernet Franc, which a lot of people think should be our signature grape in Colorado, uh, is like down around 7 or 8%. Yeah.
18:51
If I might digress on signature varieties a bit because people are always saying, "Well, look at Oregon. You know, the Willamette Valley is known for Pinot Noir." Well, that's great.
19:02
On the other hand, there's a lot of other areas of Oregon that don't grow Pinot Noir. Sure. So they kinda get left out of that.
19:10
And that's why I'm a little hesitant to say, "Oh, this is where we're hanging our hat in Colorado-" Right...
19:18
because we have such a diversity of climates, of soil structures, and what works in the Grand Valley may not work quite as well in the, the West Elks AVA or down in Montezuma County. Right. I agree with that. It...
19:32
'Cause when I think of Washington, I d- I don't necessarily zero in on one particular grape, but I- Yeah... I know that they, I know Syrah is really good out of Washington. Cabernet Sauvignon is, uh- Mm-hmm...
19:43
Pinot Gris. Uh, so they have a lot of things that, that are good. Exactly. And, and so it, it just raises up the, you know, Washington, you know? Yeah. So we can do... And it's the same in Colorado.
19:52
We have a lot of- Yeah... q- uh, varietals that do fantastic. Mm-hmm. So including, uh, Malbec- Yes... has been, uh, one of my favorites over the years. Tempranillo, which I, I got to s- work- Mm...
20:05
start working with, uh, just in 2018. So I'd like to see more, more of those, you know, more Spanish grapes and- Sure... and things going forward.
20:15
I don't know if you were around, but the story behind Tempranillo in Colorado was,
20:21
it must've been 2000, 2001, Richard Smart, who's a world-renowned viticulturist out of Australia, he came to Colorado to talk about growing grapes. Mm-hmm.
20:32
And, uh, you know, his observation was that our climate and terrain reminded him a lot of La Mancha in Spain, right up kind of on the foothills of the Pyrenees, um, you know, really cold winters, hot summers.
20:47
Uh, and he said, "You guys should think about Tempranillo." Yeah. So there were a couple of enterprising growers back then who planted it, and yeah, sure enough, it, it is really well-suited to the climate.
20:59
Although, I think we went through a couple of years where it wasn't as cold hearty as we'd like. Right. But it's, you know, it's bounced back, and people are s- making some great Tempranillos. You, you had one, right?
21:12
Yes. Yeah. I've made, uh, uh, some really good Tempranillo. Um, [laughs] in fact, my first shot at it, that 2018, ended up in the, in the Governor's Cup. That's right. And then- Right...
21:23
2019, uh, was a bit of a challenge because of the freeze coming in October where- Yeah... we had to pick early. And, and then I made, uh, a 2020 Tempranillo. The harvest was really short- Mm-hmm...
21:38
uh, that year, and of course nothing in '21. And that vineyard, uh, sadly got wiped out- Yeah... in, uh, in that freeze of 2020, late October freeze.
21:47
Well, we do have several, um, I'm, I'm trying to remember who I just saw, uh, Tempranillo rosés, uh, which I think- Oh, yeah...
21:54
you know, in some of those years, like 2019, 2020, where you've gotta rush picking and, and maybe it's not quite as ripe as you wanted- Right... uh, r- I've had some really lovely rosés made out of Tempranillo too, too.
22:06
Yeah. I should've, uh, I should've thought of that. [laughs] But anyway, um, so grape-growing in Colorado, when you look at the weather chart- [laughs]...
22:16
obviously, um, we know the Grand Valley and, and, uh, the West Elks, uh, near Hotchkiss and Paonia. Those have been our, those are our two AVAs, and we know they, we can grow grapes there.
22:27
So then there's this undiscovered country- [laughs]... that's what I like to call it here in- Yeah... Colorado, which is the Four Corners area. Mm-hmm.
22:34
And then something new I had never heard of, uh, an area in Colorado called Paradox Valley. [laughs] I, I had to look it up on Google. Yes.
22:43
[laughs] You know, this was a result of some of the climate studies by the Colorado Climate Center at CSU and, you know, they did, um, uh, data comparisons of cold temperatures and freezes and growing days.
22:59
Um, and, and they ended up identifying a couple of areas.
23:02
You know, there's a lot of more area in Montezuma County down in the Four Corners than we realized, and I think, you know, there, there have been a few growers down there who've taken advantage of that, John Sutcliffe, Guy Drew.
23:14
Yeah. Um, uh, but there's probably a lot more potential down there than we know.
23:19
But Paradox Valley is that weird little strip, and I don't remember the highway, but it's probably the westernmost north-south highway in the state. Kind of runs from, um, [smacks lips]
23:34
uh, Whitewater Hill down through to Telluride. Yeah. Uh, it's sort of- So-... the back road to Telluride. Yeah, so picture that. You're, you're in, you're in Palisade.
23:44
You're in Grand Junction, and you head south towards Telluride. And you're on the highway, and you're about halfway there, and you look, [laughs] and if you look to the right- Yes... to the west- Yeah...
23:56
you, that's about Paradox Valley. Right. Right. And it's... I, you know, I remember driving that way to Telluride once, um, 'cause I'd heard about it, and I thought, "Well, what is this?"
24:08
Absolutely beautiful drive, but there's nothing there. [laughs] Right. It is really isolated. However, you know, maybe that's what makes it such good grape-growing areas.
24:18
Um, but I think that's another, that, that's an area we need to explore. Yeah. [laughs] I just need to- We do need to explore it.
24:26
It's just, it's so far away from, from everything and it takes some re- real unique individuals, uh, to go after that and plant grapes. Right.
24:36
Because you are, uh, like I said, you're, [laughs] you're a long way from, from most everything. Probably you're even further away from, um, big cities and grocery stores than you are in, in Cortez. Yeah.
24:49
Uh, 'cause at least in Cortez you can run across the border into Shiprock, New Mexico and, and, and get your groceries. But yeah, Paradox Valley is a little more remote.
24:57
And then there's another area the climate center identified, which is, um, the east side, southeast side of the Wet Mountains down in Pueblo County. Mm-hmm.
25:10
So the Wet Mountains would sort of be the southern tail of the Front Range. There's some areas there that s- would seem to be suited to vinifera.
25:21
Again, this is based on an, an analysis of the data and the weather history. Yeah. Somebody needs to go plant grapes a- and test it out. But, um, I, I, I was excited to see that because the Front Range
25:35
certainly seems to show a lot of potential, but, you know, we've had issues with, uh, hail on the Front Range frequently. There was a guy- Mm-hmm... in Parker. Oh. In Parker. Oh, wow.
25:46
You know, and he was growing some, some hybrids, and he was excited and enthused. And about the fourth or fifth year he just got wiped out by hail. Oh, wow.
25:56
So, uh, you know, if we do hail in the, i- in that part of the state, uh, we need to, uh, look at hail netting, just like bird netting, for grapes.
26:07
It's something they do in Aus- in Argentina- Oh, I didn't realize that... to protect the crop. And it, and they do it in, in, uh, some areas for apples too.
26:15
Well, and I know in, uh [laughs] in Brighton where I grew up- Yeah... a lot of, you know, a lot of farmer, agricultural farmer they- there, I know they have, like, hail guns or, or something. Ooh.
26:26
I don't know exactly the, I don't know, really know the, uh, the process, but- Uh, yeah, uh, you, you shoot something into the clouds and it supposedly creates precipitation before the hail, uh, hailstones get- Yeah...
26:40
really huge. I'll go... That sounds right. I know it stops the hail. Yeah. That's what, that's the hope. Yeah. [laughs] So. Well, I have people, uh...
26:49
Look, I have family out in Pueblo, Colorado, so we just need to find, uh, I need to find a connection out in the county. [laughs] Yeah. Out in Pueblo County. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So- Do. [laughs] And see what's going on.
27:00
And I do remember somebody growing grapes in, in Pueblo, uh, years ago that, uh, Clyde Sparrow used to buy from. And I'm not sure if that's still, if they're still, uh, active or what.
27:10
I haven't heard about those people for a while, so I'm not sure either. Yeah. And then at one point there was, uh, a woman out in Burlington. Right. I think they finally decided to give up their grapes. Did they?
27:22
[laughs] Um- Yeah... I mean, they were, as far as I know, primarily wheat growers.
27:26
You know, they, they tried the grapes for several years and, uh, you know, part of their problem is they were so isolated as far as the wine and grape industry, that it was hard to get their grapes to market.
27:38
And I remember her calling me and saying, "How do, how do I get wineries more interested?" It's like, well... Well, and I talked to her a few times, and I, and this was 10, at least 10 years ago.
27:48
I, I don't feel like, maybe me as, as a wine maker, I was not ready to make hybrids and present them to my customers at that point. Mm-hmm.
27:56
So, and now with the way the m- the wine market is, and there's a lot of fun, experimental and, uh, different styles of wines, this is a great time- Yeah... to put those, those grapes, uh, out into the market.
28:10
Well, one of the things I think that's happened, and maybe it's just a matter of necessity because of the climate, but people are working harder to really make quality wine from the hybrids.
28:23
As somebody said, n- nobody ever treated the hybrids with respect when they were making wine. It was like, "Yeah, okay. This, all we can get is Marquette. We'll make it, whatever." But now people are really
28:35
eliciting all of the, the, the qualities out of Marquette that make it a really nice grape, and all the other varieties too. So I, I think it's partially a change in mentality. Yeah.
28:45
Um, and, and maybe it's necessity, but you're right. 10 years ago, I remember having a conversation with a grower in Palisade who just was like, "There's no way I'm ever gonna be able to sell hybrids to wineries.
28:58
They're just not gonna buy it." But when I was out there last year, he was raving about, um, Aram- uh, not, not Aramella, um, Traminette. Oh, Traminette. About how Traminette was doing so well for him.
29:10
[laughs] And I'm thinking, "Is this the same guy who was just saying a few years ago that he'd never be able to sell this?" And now he's, he's having a great time with it.
29:17
And of course we're not supposed to call them hybrids. That's true. That's true. Interspecific cultivar. [laughs] And we, we, we should follow that up because the term hybrids usually brings to mind genetic manipulation.
29:31
And no, we are actually crossing grapes, breeding them the way they have been bred for thousands of years. Uh, it is a very slow and tedious process.
29:43
Um, you know, so it, it takes thousands of failures to come up with one good variety. Right. And that's years and years in the making. So, um- Absolutely... yeah. They, these are not some kind of Franken-grape.
29:58
[laughs] They, they are, you know, true new breeds of grapes with, with new characteristics, things that have been happening in vineyards, uh, for thousands of years. Yeah. That's, uh, yeah, when...
30:10
Yeah, grapes, [laughs] they, yeah, they've crossed naturally over, yeah, thousands of years and create a new, uh, variety every time. Yeah. There was a great story I heard many years ago.
30:22
Apparently the Pinot family is not- Uh, well, actually many grapes are not genetically stable, but the Pinot family, the pigmentation genes were not particularly stable. People in Burgundy had planted Pinot Noir,
30:39
and after a couple of years they were harvesting Pinot Blanc. Same vines, same grapes, they just sort of shifted a little bit. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that sort of thing is, has been going on forever. All right. Well, St.
30:53
Vincent is a hybrid- Yes, it is... a interspecific cultivar. [laughs] But, um, and so I happen to have a bottle of St. Vincent 2018 from Whitewater Hill out in Palisade, so let's try that and see what you think.
31:11
Yeah, Whitewater, um, planted several of these, uh, hybrids. Thank you. Nice. Yeah. [laughs] Nice little cling right there. And they, they have a rosé of St. Vincent too, that was, uh, that was very nice. Yeah.
31:27
And, and St. Vincent is, uh, similar to Sangiovese- Okay... is, uh, the way I read about it, and which has always intrigued me about this grape. I love working with Italian varietals.
31:42
Yeah, so it has this nice spice cherry nose to it. Yeah. It, it, it's s- it's kind of an exotic, um, spice almost.
31:51
I mean, yeah, you could tell me this was Sangiovese and I'd, I'd buy it, but I'm terrible at blind tasting. However, I just, yeah, I love that, that deep, dark fruit that's, that, that has a great structure to it.
32:04
You're right. Nice dark fruit, but real good acidity. Yeah, you could, you might be able to fool somebody, uh, thinking they're drinking Sangiovese, but- I'm easily-...
32:13
or some other Italian varietal [laughs] because there's- Yeah, yeah... thousands just within Italy. I was gonna say I'm easily fooled, so... [laughs] Mm. Yeah, very good. Yeah.
32:24
I would love to see this with, paired with a, a red sauce, uh, on, on pasta or something. Yeah. So that's, uh, St. Vincent, uh, like we said, Grand Valley, Colorado, Whitewater Hill. And, uh, 2018, that's, uh, delish.
32:39
And I think that one comes in at like 18, 19 bucks. That's what I was thinking, yeah. Yeah. Still a g- a really good value, and a, a, you know, a wine that, that I think will really benefit from food.
32:51
However, it's very pleasant on its own. This is a strange place to have a vineyard, but there was a small vineyard, um, in Newcastle, in b- just, you know- Yeah, yeah... uh, yeah.
33:00
So, uh, for those that don't know, if you're driving, uh, west on I-70 and you pass, uh, Glenwood Springs, and it's headed that way out, out, um- Yeah, it's still in the Glenwood Canyon, but it's- Yeah...
33:15
you know, in the east, or western edge of Glenwood Canyon, so it's a little, not quite as steep.
33:21
I, you know, I've always driven past there thinking th- there must be places to grow grapes here because the, the aspect of the, the slopes seems to be in the right direction, good air drainage.
33:34
So I, that's good to know. Yeah. I didn't realize there was any over there. I was surprised. And, and it was a, I mean, so it was really a small hobby vineyard, and they had Baco Noir- Ah... as part of their plantings.
33:45
Yes. And so I had, uh, picked up, I don't know, a couple, two, 300 pounds, whatever they had one year and made some Baco Noir as a, uh, just as an experiment to see what, what, uh, how it would come out. And?
33:58
Um, and it came out. [laughs] But it's kind of like you said earlier, I needed to take a more serious approach to it, and I could've, it, it, it would've c- it was nice. Let me just say it's, it's a great grape- Yeah...
34:13
and I would love to work with it again had I taken it a little more seriously. I needed more quantity to take it a little bit more serious. But, um, could have guided it into a direction, um, that people would've loved.
34:25
Well, Baco I think is, is one of the interspecific cultivars- Yes. [laughs]...
34:31
that, uh, you know, has, has often given the bad name to those grapes because it seems to me, and I'm not a winemaker, but it seems to me problematic.
34:42
A lot of the Baco Noirs I've had have been tough, sinewy, chewy, you know, a little over-extracted and- Hmm... you know, harshly acidic. But, uh, e- even, you know, we talked about Oregon,
34:58
uh, some vineyards in Oregon have made Baco Noir that, you know, was good, but it was still problematic. Hmm.
35:07
And it wasn't until, uh, Guy Drew down in Cortez, uh, no longer making wine under the Guy Drew label, but he had a Baco Noir from a vineyard that, I believe that was the one he said was supposedly, uh, dry farmed by the Anasazi- Wow...
35:25
uh, hundreds of years ago. So one of the few dry farmed vineyards in, in Colorado. But, uh, it was stunning, absolutely stunning.
35:34
So I think Baco's a, a tough one to start with maybe, but yeah, it, it can make some really, really nice wines. I think it was Jackrabbit Hill. No, that was a, they had a rosé of Marechal Foch, which is another
35:50
seem, uh, finicky, uh, hybrid grape that ha- has always had problems. But their rosé out of Jackrabbit was remarkable. Well, that's about all I have, Doug.
36:01
Well, thank you for the opportunity to come chat and, uh, and, and talk about interspecific cultivars. [laughs] Yeah. I'm gonna continue to refer to them as hybrid grapes because- Y- yeah... it's just easier.
36:13
And- Yeah, I agree... and I'm not gonna be afraid of them anymore. But, um, okay, we have one last question before you go. Okay. If there was a wine named after you- [laughs]... what would it be? [laughs] Oh. Oh, dear.
36:28
I got started drinking wine because in, in college when I was probably under, no, I was under 21, uh, my German professor assigned me a report on the brand-new-at-that-time German wine laws.
36:43
And I thought, "Well, I've, I've gotta do some research on this."
36:46
And fortunately, the liquor store down the street was very accommodating, and that was the '76 vintage, which was one of the greatest vintages of that century- Wow... uh, out of Germany.
36:59
So, uh, you know, I started drinking Riesling, and if that's the only thing I could drink for the rest of my life, I would still be happy. Not necessarily sweet Riesling, dry as well, but- Yeah...
37:12
uh, but, you know, if it had my name on it, it would probably be a Riesling. We've tasted a couple of great wines today. Thank you for sharing those. The- You're very welcome. And, uh, appreciate you coming down- Sure...
37:26
and hanging out with us. And you got any closing thoughts? Enjoy a glass of Colorado wine whenever you can. [upbeat music] That's our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening to Denver Wine Radio.
37:39
Your homework for the week is to go out and taste some Colorado wine.
37:43
If you have any questions or comments, or just wanna let us know what you're drinking, go to denverwineradio.com, where you can email us or leave us a voice message. We'd love to hear from you.
37:55
And remember, put some altitude in your glass. Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media company.
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